Talk:Enemy Classifications
This page is reasonably complete at this point, and all listings shown have been verified as factual. However, it may still not contain all appropriate listings in all categories. "Evil Enemies", in particular, probably needs more. Please add additional listings you can verify are true. Thanks! ---- Does this page need to exist? Couldn't we just make a category for this and put it on the appropriate pages instead? That way people could search the categories for help with unlocking upgrades on weapons instead of having individual pages detailing the many needed things for it, such as larger enemies or smaller enemies etc.--Alpha Lycos 04:34, July 16, 2011 (UTC) I don't think this page needs to not 'exist, and categories are a very non-intuitive way for most people to find things. Also, it requires that the category actually '''gets '''added to all the appropriate pages (which is a lot to assume will actually happen). Furthermore, the information remains spread all over the place, and ''further: It won't come up in a web search. -- Eloquius 08:34, July 16, 2011 (UTC) :But all this page really can say is "Large enemies are these:" and list links to pages, which seems a waste of a page. Another option would be having an entire page devoted solely to explaining how to unlock the upgrades, which would mean this page would simply become a section instead of a small page about a small handful of enemies.--Alpha Lycos 10:34, July 16, 2011 (UTC) ::Perhaps we could make it a list of all types of enemies and call it '''List of Enemy Classes or something. --Enodoc(Talk) (User Space) 11:58, July 16, 2011 (UTC) :: ::I can certainly agree with that^ idea. I still think having a single location listing this information is valuable. I see questions regarding it fairly often on various forums and Yahoo Answers. My own frustrating, tedious search for the info was what inspired me to create this page in the first place. -- Eloquius 18:43, July 16, 2011 (UTC) Glad to see this page getting filled out. Definitely a helpful resource. Much thanks to all who have helped improve it. Can anyone yet confirm whether the following 2 enemy types classify as Large? The note about the uncertainly of them keeps getting removed, without further clarification. (1) Big fire-''throwing Mercs. (2) Small black balverines, with white undercoat. -- Eloquius 10:55, July 18, 2011 (UTC) :Sorry about that, I thought I clarified it enough in the edit summary when I removed them. I checked that all balverines count as large, which they do (at least for me :) ), and the mercenaries that count are the ones that look a bit like Saker, whether they cast or throw fire. The ones that are smaller than the Saker-types that also throw fire bottles don't seem to count. --Enodoc(Talk) (User Space) 11:51, July 18, 2011 (UTC) : : :Ah. Thank you. I missed your edit summary. Thanks for the update there. -- Eloquius 13:04, July 18, 2011 (UTC) : *Sand Furies as Large Enemies: Killed some sand furies with an upgraded Trollblight (103 dmg, +80% vs. Large Enemies) and killed them in fewer hits than with Aurora's Shield (101 dmg). Since the Trollblight ''does ''do 2 more base damage, and also has +Flame Damage, there are too many variables for this test to be conclusive. -- Eloquius 10:15, July 20, 2011 (UTC) I'm now completely convinced that Sand Furies classify as Large, though I wouldn't mind someone testing it with a weapon that required Large Enemy kills, so they could see a meter grow. (It makes some sense, in spite of their small-ish size, given that they appear so late in the game.) Testing was a little iffy, since it seems that not all sand furies have the same HP. Test was as follows, listing number of hits needed per kill: 1 to 2 hits with Aurora's Shield hammer (101 dmg, +40% vs Auroran, +30% vs Evil Humans (not sure if they class as Evil humans, but it's there)). 1 to 2 hits with Trollblight hammer(103 dmg, +80% vs Large, +Flame dmg). 2 to 3 hits with Souldrinker sword (104 dmg (includes +15 dmg upgrade)) Unless Fire Damage boosts the total damage dealt vs Sand Furies or hammers do more than their listed damage, just because they're hammers, then the test concludes that Sand Furies a classed as Large. (I also tried using another Hammer with Fire on it, but it has 12 more base dmg than the Trollblight, so there's no telling which was causing the result) -- Eloquius 20:59, July 20, 2011 (UTC) I take it back. I'm fairly certain it was the Flame Damage, not the +80% vs Large, that was making the difference. Tested using the following: Trollblight, Aurora's Shield, and Dragonbane (All vs. Dark Minions). My Trollblight does 103 dmg (185 vs Large), +Flame, and required 1 hit to kill them. My Dragonbane does 115 dmg, +Flame, and required 1 hit. My Aurora's Shield does 141 dmg and required 2 hits to kill them. -- Eloquius 01:05, July 21, 2011 (UTC) :Fair enough. Was worth checking though. I've restored your other post for consistency, and also because we don't usually remove comments from talk pages unless they're vandalism. --Enodoc(Talk) (User Space) 16:49, July 21, 2011 (UTC) I am kinda late finding this page but I thought Wolves are not ugly and Dark Minions were large. I'm gonna reread and I'll add more if I find something I'm not sure of. --Garry Damrau(talk) 13:28, January 9, 2012 (UTC) P.S. Read my post on Talk:A Marriage of Incon.... Etc. OK Wolves are ugly according to my Slimquick. In nature they really are quite beautiful and misunderstood but we are talking in-game here. P.S. As far as what to call it, another game I have played (Final Fantasy) refers to this as a "Beastiary". I don't believe Square Enix has a copyright on that.Garry Damrau(talk) 09:20, January 10, 2012 (UTC) I wasn't sure if I should've used Additional or Miscellaneous. Settled on Additional.Garry Damrau(talk) 09:33, February 11, 2012 (UTC) Balverines Over several playthroughs, I've found that balverines do not always count as large enemies. Initially, I thought it was because my Hero hadn't levelled up enough, which made the balverines weaker, but after opening all chests on the Road to Rule and finishing the main quest multiple times, it still occurs about half the time, even with white balverines. This has occurred while upgrading Trollblight, Facemelter, and Scattershot, and I don't have problems with any of the other 'large' enemies listed. Where I'm at on my current playthrough, it's time for me to return to Page and start The Masquerade, but balverines have already started appearing, at least in Mistpeak Valley. Groups consist of the small black/gray balverines and the medium-sized 'blooded' balverines, and they do '''not' count. Has anyone else encountered this at all? TheIndifferentist 21:08, March 19, 2012 (UTC) :Personally I can't actually remember. But I know it has been suggested before that only the White Balverines count as large. Maybe this needs further looking into. --Enodoc(Talk) (User Space) 21:59, March 19, 2012 (UTC) :I was playing my grandsons game where he had flown through the game to become King and beat the Crawler, and the Facemelter upgraded easily when killing (with a flourish) any of the Balverines encountered then. Also yes you can, and probably will, encounter Balverines in Mistpeak Valley, Millfields, and Silverpines (especially at night) before the party at Reavers. It seems to be based on your hero's status level as well as the level of chests opened on the RtR. i.e. many kills = level 5 status = Balverines. On the other hand, I have had problems getting the Hobbes with the big axe to count as large enemies.Garry Damrau(talk) 01:35, March 20, 2012 (UTC) Do Clockwork creatures count as Men? So on my most recent playthrough of Like Clockwork I was using the Desert Fury pistol. I had used it at Ravenscar Keep during the riot but the Man-Eater augment was not unlocked yet. At Clockwork Island I killed a lot of clockwork beetles and dogs with it and then the Man-Eater unlocked so it would appear that clockwork creatures count as Men. Can anyone else confirm this? -- geekie beekie(Talk) (User Space) 01:13, June 10, 2012 (UTC) Ghosts Says in the article that ghosts count as villagers. I've been killing them in the Gone But Not Forgotten quest as part of a weapon upgrade but they aren't counting towards it. It's for the Mr. Stabby weapon. I've been killing every single ghost with a flourish and the bar hasn't moved. The ghosts from the The Silverpines Curse quest did count however. Valadez (talk) 21:48, June 18, 2013 (UTC) :As I continued killing them the stat counter for mercenaries popped up so I think they may count as them instead. Can't check with an appropriate weapon though. Valadez (talk) 22:06, June 18, 2013 (UTC) ::Another thing, my villagers killed stat is still 0. Valadez (talk) 22:09, June 18, 2013 (UTC) ::Killing with flourishes can be tricky for weapon upgrades, based on personal experience. Even for situations such as that, using a flourish can sometimes not effect the weapons upgrade stat. I had one playthrough where all I used against enemies was flourishes, mostly for weapon upgrades, and I barely got it done after completing the main storyline for the game, and I'd been using the weapon since nearly the beginning of the game. Its the same for a few upgrades I've dealt with, such as killing hollow men, where even killing a large number only using the weapon doesn't effect the upgrade. It could be a small bug, but then after a long long time of trying it eventually worked.--Lycos Devanos Drop me a line 22:45, June 18, 2013 (UTC) :::I don't think it's that. I haven't had any issues with any other flourish upgrade and I had no issue killing the villager ghosts with flourishes for a kill humans with flourishes upgrade. Also the soldier ghosts in the last wave did count towards the kill villagers or soldiers with flourishes upgrade. It was only the villager ghosts that didn't. I believe the soldier ghosts count as soldiers but the villager ones count as mercenaries. The villager ghosts counting towards the mercenaries killed stat rather than the villagers killed stat supports that as well. Valadez (talk) 22:54, June 18, 2013 (UTC) :::It is possible that the ghosts encountered during The Silverpines Curse are being counted as soldiers and not villagers. It would be hard to see the weapon upgrade progress as there is only about 4 or 5 of them, as I remember. During Gone But Not Forgotten there are about 25 or 30 ghosts, and only the hollowmen regenerate, if you don't kill the ghosts. Even if they were counted as villagers, you would still need to kill them in your own world, and in co-op mode with someone else, to get enough kills to upgrade Mr. Stabby. This subject brings to mind the fact that there are different kinds of Shadows. The ones that appear in the desert attacking Walter count as human, mercenaries, and men, whereas the ones that appear later with the Sentinals count as Auroran, and Shadow creatures. I think the programmers who worked on different parts of the game sort of lost continuity with which enemies counted as different classifications. All we can do as end users is try to classify when each enemy applies to each classification and not try to explain why.Garry Damrau(talk) 05:31, June 19, 2013 (UTC) ::::It's actually quite easy to tell with the ghosts in The Silverpines Curse as Mr. Stabby only needs 60 kills to upgrade so it's clear that it adds to the upgrade if you hadn't started it yet, even the five or so soldier ghosts at the end of Gone But Not Forgotten made a clear difference after that but the many villager ghosts made no impact at all. What I don't know is what the Royal Guard ghost in The Silverpines Curse counts as. Though, as far as I know, he's the only one in the game so he doesn't really matter in my opinion anyway. I wish I knew about the mercenary shadows before. I'm finding it a pain to upgrade The Merchants Bodyguard lol. Valadez (talk) 06:36, June 19, 2013 (UTC) ::::Those shadows wouldn't have helped you much with a sword, because when you approach them and kill a few, the scene ends. But, if you keep your distance and use ranged attacks or directed will spells, they will continuously spawn. There is a note about this on Blindness.Garry Damrau(talk) 10:36, June 19, 2013 (UTC) The royal guard officer-type soldier encountered in The Silverpines Curse is counted internally programming-wise, as one of Logan's "Elite Soldiers." The only other category would be generic "human." The soldiers in The Silverpines Curse are "soldiers" and "humans" only. One can minutely discern the slightest change in measured augment even with Jack's Hammer If felt necessary, one can verify all this by simply methodically analyzing the Sanctuary statistics in the "LIVE room" before and after the quest. The ghostly villagers in the Necronomicon quest-line, on the other hand, are generously categorized as mercenaries (convenient for those interested in upgrading weapons requiring the dispatching of mercenary thugs, but lacking in rationality), human, men (sometimes, ludically), evil (weapon-dependent), and, dependent upon which weapon is in question again, mere "villagers" (but ONLY sometimes, reiterating...) - The above is correct about the schizoidally categorized Shadows in Fable 3. One of the game's biggest secrets is the maximally "helpful" Legendary weapon augmentation potential available during the specific sequence in the Auroran desert as they attack Walter, truly... I don't pretend to understand the intelligibility of categorizing the one higher-ranking royal guardsman officer as a member of Logan's elite corps of soldiery, esp. in light of the fact the narrative coherence as relating to the relevant quest, does not even remotely reinforce such a notional fallacy, but such is the reality of the game's logic. Fable 3, one can say the polite way, needed a bit more polishing in certain areas... Ghosts The "villager-type ghosts" encountered in Gone But not Forgotten are only classified according to the game's own admittedly arbitrary and unknown criteria, as 1) humans/"men" and 2) mercenaries. (Implicitly, all beings in this quest also belong to "darkness" in terms of day or night.) The "mercenary" categorization baffles me, frankly. In any case, one day ago I upgraded Really Sharp Pair of Scissors with 80 flourish kills against humans accordingly and any weapon specifically mentioning "mercenaries", can here be likewise easily upgraded. Bizarre Official Licensed Strategy-Guide Information (Misinformation, ha) Official BradyGames Strategy Guide includes the following categories ONLY (page 333): EVIL: Hollowmen; Mercs; Hobbes; Balverines; Shadows recognition of more 'evil', skeletalized variants of certain evil foes here, oddly... How can those cute little skeleton hobbe pets not be given recognition, skeletalized hollow-wolves, etc...? UGLY: Hollowmen; Hobbes; Balverines BATS, etc. HUH...? LARGE: Merc Commanders; Hollowmen Summoners; Balverines; Balverine Sires dev word for White Balverines and all related elite Balverine types, basically; Sentinels Minions omission is pure absurd stupidity here, HELLO? AURORAN: Sand Furies; Shadows; Minions; Sentinels HUMANOID: Hobbes; Mercs; Soldiers ambiguous category SHORT: Hobbes; Minions bats, wolves, etc. again; and Dark Minions, notably LARGE indisputably, are here officially ratified as 'short', of all things...WHAT THE HECK? I believe drug psychosis might have been happening with the strategy guide writers...